This is part of The Pile, a partial archive of some open source mailing lists and newsgroups.
To: svlug@svlug.org Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:00:08 -0700 From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> Subject: Re: [svlug] KDE and GNOME begin David E. Fox quotation: >> Coincidence, or is the intended message that one should install >> everything? > > If it's intended to be part of the Gnome application set, it's pretty > much implied that it should need Gnome to run as the underlying > desktop. Gnucash can run standalone (as long as you have the necessary > libraries), and it doesn't really depend on Gnome per se, but > nevertheless it's touted as a Gnome app, not a GTK/whatever else app. Here is the heart of my contention, on that matter: Many applications that are portrayed as "GNOME" applications are really just GTK ones that have been unnecessarily and avoidably been made made dependent on other GNOME components. When the matter is raised with them, the GNOME guys give somewhat incoherent justifications, and the Helixcode guys specifically seem to feel it's A Good Thing because it encourages installing the kitchen sink and thus bringing about a "standard desktop". The computer press doesn't help at all, in as much as they can't even grasp the concept of window managers, let alone understand why choice, diversity, and simplicity are desirable. === Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:15:25 -0700 From: Aaron Lehmann <aaronl@vitelus.com> To: J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> Cc: svlug@svlug.org Subject: Re: [svlug] KDE and GNOME --vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 12:51:30PM -0700, J C Lawrence wrote: > Stupid example: >=20 > gnapster pulls in most of the Gnome universe. Wrong. Check out version 1.4.0 and configure it with --disable-gnome. I spent a long time porting it away from Gnome, so I hope it's understandable that I try to keep this misconception from propagating. === Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 11:01:36 -0800 To: svlug@svlug.org Subject: Re: [svlug] KDE and GNOME From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> begin David E. Fox quotation: > But gnapster happily runs under KDE. There's really no such thing as "running under KDE". Check your ps output, when you're "running KDE", and you'll notice that you're probably running the kwm window manager and an odd assortment of utilities. So, why should there even be _any question_ of whether some foo X client will run "under" this setup? kwm is just another window manager, and gnapster is just another X client. You can run gnapster if your system satisfies its dependencies. You can't run gnapster if your system doesn't satisfy its dependencies. It's entirely irrelevant which window manager and (in some cases) flotilla of utilities are default-loaded at that time. My point is that this whole notion of "running GNOME" and "running KDE" is illusory: It's a marketing notion with almost no connection to the underlying reality. Equally, it's somewhat nonsensical to speak of choosing between GNOME and KDE, or preferring one over the other. Each is just a collection of X clients, some hinting tricks for window managers, a CORBA broker, and a few extra inter-process gimmicks. The smart thing to do is to pick the X clients you like from each, and run them if it suits you without particular regard for their "desktop" affiliations.[1] The people who are stuck with choosing between "desktops" are those who lack the initiative to edit their .xinitrc files. To them, GNOME and KDE seem to be monolithic "desktop" systems, because they're helpless to customise their operating environments, and obliged to accept some "desktop" packager's defaults. But _we_ don't have to adopt the brain-damaged terminology that results from that state of helplessness, do we? [1] Quibbles about "desktop" component architectures and clipboard enhancements are hereby duly acknowledged in advance. But my point stands. === Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:44:12 -0800 From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> To: svlug@svlug.org Subject: Re: [svlug] KDE and GNOME begin J C Lawrence quotation: > The main connection is that defined by things like drag'n'drop > "standards", and other inter-app IPC/RPC forms. AFAICT that's what > really defines "Gnome" and "KDE". That would, in fact, be the footnoted "quibble" my post cited. === Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:07:04 -0800 From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> To: svlug@svlug.org Subject: Re: [svlug] KDE and GNOME begin Marc MERLIN quotation: > This is 99% true. > When I run kwintv under gnome (whatever version comes with RH 6.2), > gnome tells me after I've run the app for a minute or so "No response > to the SaveYourself command. The program may be slow, stopped or > broken. You may wait for it to respond or remove it" (not even a > cancel/forget it button!!!) I'm forced to minimize the dialog box and > ignore it > > That definitely very poor design in gnome, and it's proof that yes, > gnome can be a pain in the ass if you run a (I'm supposing specific) > kde app. But does this mean the concept of "running GNOME" has (even) a 1% foundation in reality, or this more fruitfully seen as broken and obnoxious behaviour by some GNOME utility (probably a session manager)? I'd be tempted to say the latter -- especially since I'll bet the offending utility could be found and silenced (or vapourised) without much trouble. ===