This is part of The Pile, a partial archive of some open source mailing lists and newsgroups.
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:11:51 -0700
From: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
To: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Ok, so I have to use Red Hat, and basically, all I can say is that in the
3.5 years I haven't touched it, it's not gotten much better.
I've been working with RH 7.3 here
- rpm still doesn't have the option to auto pull dependencies in obvious cases
(i.e rpm -i file.rpm, where all the dependencies are in the same dir)
- up2date is a joke
[root@localhost RPMS]# up2date -i redhat-config-network
Error Message:
Free service limited due to high load, please try again later (server 1001059607)
Error Class Code: 51
I don't need rhn, besides I don't want to be pulling packages from RH,
I have them on my disk.
In theory, it does what it need, but I think it's been designed to be hard
to use without talking to RH.
If someone has a howto on how to use up2date against a local repository of
RPMs, I'm listening.
- dependencies still suck.
[root@localhost RPMS]# rpm -i redhat-config-network-1.0.0-1.i386.rpm gnome-core-1.4.0.4-54.i386.rpm libgnomeprint15-0.35-4.i386.rpm rep-gtk-gnome-0.15-7.i386.rpm gdk-pixbuf-gnome-0.14.0-8.i386.rpm rep-gtk-0.15-7.i386.rpm librep-0.15.1-3.i386.rpm pygnome-libglade-1.4.2-3.i386.rpm pygtk-libglade-0.6.9-3.i386.rpm libglade-0.17-5.i386.rpm sawfish-1.0.1-9.i386.rpm
error: failed dependencies:
libcapplet.so.0 is needed by gnome-core-1.4.0.4-54
libcapplet.so.0 is needed by sawfish-1.0.1-9
How am I supposed to know that libcapplet.so.0 comes from the
control-center package?
- gnorpm doesn't seem to want to compute dependencies for local installs
gnorpm -i redhat-config-network-1.0.0-1.i386.rpm
tells me I'm missing dependencies
launching gnorpm and selecting a local package doesn't work any better.
Now, if I do a web find, it will get those magic RDF files (which probably
contain the magic dependency to package name info), but for a package with
many recursive missing dependencies like redhat-config-network, it still
fails (it doesn't realize that control-center has further dependencies
- rpmfind. I've had good luck with this in the past, besides its author,
Daniel Veillard, is a good friend, but I must be cursed because the version
that shipped with RH 7.3 doesn't seem to want to work on my system
[root@localhost RPMS]# rm -rf ~/.rpmfind
[root@localhost RPMS]# rpmfind -v redhat-config-network
Host : deepthought.engr.intransa.com, Country: 840, Zones 0 0 0, Continent 1
Arch : i386, Os : Linux
Default distribution : Red Hat, Inc.(Red Hat Linux)
owning 453 of 456 installed packages
Get http://rpmfind.net/linux/RDF/resources/redhat-config-network.rdf
Fetching : http://rpmfind.net/linux/RDF/resources/redhat-config-network.rdf to /tmp/fetch6649
rdfRead /tmp/fetch6649: resource is not wellformed XML
Cannot install or locate resource redhat-config-network
Do you want to search it in the catalog? [Y/n] : Y
Loading catalog to /tmp/fullIndex.rdf.gz
Fetching : http://rpmfind.net/linux/RDF/resources/fullIndex.rdf.gz to /tmp/fullIndex.rdf.gz
Searching the RPM catalog for redhat-config-network ...
rdfRead /tmp/fullIndex.rdf.gz: resource is not wellformed XML
Cannot open catalog /tmp/fullIndex.rdf.gz
[root@localhost RPMS]#
Besides, I don't really want rpmfind to get packages on the net, I have
them on my disk.
- I understand there is an apt-rpm, but I don't know if it will work right
with packages that ship with RH 7.3 (I'm not overly worried about getting
contrib packages from the web at this point).
If I should look into this, let me know.
My question is simple:
How can I install RH packages (not contrib) with the dependencies in a way
that actually works (and I want to be able to say where my packages are, I
don't want to pull them from some random place on the net)
===
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:12:33 -0700
From: Will Francis <wfrancis@incyte.com>
To: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
> My question is simple:
> How can I install RH packages (not contrib) with the dependencies in a way
> that actually works (and I want to be able to say where my packages are, I
> don't want to pull them from some random place on the net)
www.autorpm.org
You can configure it to auto-follow dependencies and can specify directories
full of RPMS you want to install.
===
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:54:14 -0700
From: "Rafael Skodlar,,," <raffi@linwin.com>
To: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Here is the answer with no answer:
Like everybody else I to go through the same RPM hell at work since our
customers use Redhat. While trying to setup decent workstation for
compiling OS stuff I run into all kinds of dependencies problems.
Wasting a lot of time I usualy give up after forth or fifth dependent
RPM fails to install. It was better in RH5.2 days.
There was an article on the web somewhere about RPM dependencies
problems recently. It's getting worse by the month and I'm not the only
one noticing this. I tried all kinds of rpm tools but they are not ready
for prime time yet.
For that reason I decided to give Debian another try. I too want to be
a "lazy sysadmin" and use one line commands to install software. Debian
failed to work on my hardware earlier where RH and Mandrake would
install without major problems. Now that Debian 3.0 is out I started to
convert some critical systems to Debian. I have routers, NFS servers
etc. running on Debian just fine. Initial install takes less than 100MB
of disk space which speaks for itself.
In order to learn more about Debian I subscribed to 6 Debian lists. Due
to high level of spam on their mailing lists I dropped 3 right away.
Mention that on one of their lists and you'll draw flames and useless
"filter solution" suggestions from "Debian bigots". My impression was
that they are nontolerant elitist group that doesn't want around anybody
that's not religious fanatic like them. To me the OS is only a tool to
do my work more efficiently and debian seem to fit that description.
Progeny distribution based on Debian was promissing but failed in
commercial world. Worth noting is that Debian distribution has been
picked up by a major corporation recently so it's going to get more
"official support".
As a long time Redhat user and customer I'm disappointed to see them
ignore those who supported them through all these years. I bought many
boxes for work and home and never asked for help so their never used '30
day support' was clear profit for them. They could provide some kind of
transition to a better package management system, or even merge with
better Debian packaging tools, which was discussed years ago, but they
ignore the issue. They never improved their selection for type of system
installation and always introduce annoying bugs that should be noticed
before the release.
For that reason I can no longer recommend RH. My message to Redhat is
fix RPM mess and install process or else. And I won't pay for their
expensive "per system support" to get automatic bug fixes which should
be free on the first place.
Let the competition talk.
I see nobody came back with a solution to your (our?) problem so that
too talks for itself.
===
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:27:25 -0700
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
To: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
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on Thu, Jul 25, 2002, Rafael Skodlar,,, (raffi@linwin.com) wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:11:51PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > Ok, so I have to use Red Hat, and basically, all I can say is that in t=
he
> > 3.5 years I haven't touched it, it's not gotten much better.
> > I've been working with RH 7.3 here
<...>
> > My question is simple:
> > How can I install RH packages (not contrib) with the dependencies in =
a way
> > that actually works (and I want to be able to say where my packages a=
re, I
> > don't want to pull them from some random place on the net)
> Here is the answer with no answer:
<grin>
I watched Marc's post with some interest. My comment here in recent
months that I was working using GNU/Linux, but unfortunately it was RH,
drew a response from someone who didn't understand the problem...but
works one seat over from the local RH onsite consultant. My response:
not all of us have that advantage (hey, let's give the benefit of the
doubt ;-), and frankly, anyone on a Debian list can make the same claim.
> Like everybody else I to go through the same RPM hell at work since
> our customers use Redhat. While trying to setup decent workstation for
> compiling OS stuff I run into all kinds of dependencies problems.
> Wasting a lot of time I usualy give up after forth or fifth dependent
> RPM fails to install. It was better in RH5.2 days.
I too used RH 4.2 - 5.2, then switched largely to Debian. I've been
around RH shops but have avoided heavy dealings with it until this
January. It's hellish, and I don't really have substantial answers to
Marc's questions. It's interesting to see experiences here.
> There was an article on the web somewhere about RPM dependencies
> problems recently. It's getting worse by the month and I'm not the only=
=20
> one noticing this. I tried all kinds of rpm tools but they are not ready
> for prime time yet.
That's my read.
> For that reason I decided to give Debian another try. I too want to be
> a "lazy sysadmin" and use one line commands to install software.
> Debian failed to work on my hardware earlier where RH and Mandrake
> would install without major problems. Now that Debian 3.0 is out I
> started to convert some critical systems to Debian. I have routers,
> NFS servers etc. running on Debian just fine. Initial install takes
> less than 100MB of disk space which speaks for itself.
100 MiB? My initial install takes ~51 mIb -- untarring the base2_2.tgz
image *is* a working Debian system.
> In order to learn more about Debian I subscribed to 6 Debian lists.
> Due to high level of spam on their mailing lists I dropped 3 right
> away. Mention that on one of their lists and you'll draw flames and
> useless "filter solution" suggestions from "Debian bigots".=20
Which lists?
Those filter solutions -- particularly if they refer to spamassassin,
are hardly useless. This catches 95%+ of my daily spam, and passes
99.98% of the legitimate mail I get. I'd reevaluate your response.
Google groups doesn't show any of your posts (matching on 'rafael'
and/or 'skodlar') in muc.lists.debian.*
> My impression was that they are nontolerant elitist group that doesn't
> want around anybody that's not religious fanatic like them. To me the
> OS is only a tool to do my work more efficiently and debian seem to
> fit that description.
Yadda, yadda. All stripes, Raffie, all stripes. Deal with it. And
don't tell me you haven't heard of Snobbian.
Debian _does_ differ from most mainstream GNU/Linux distros in that
philosophy matters (Social Contract, FSD, Debian Policy), to very good
effect, I might add. The only comperable distribution of any sort I
know is OpenBSD (goal, philosophy, and licensing guidelines), and, well,
Theo's just _so_ much warmer and fuzzier than your typical Dweebian....
Debian's a way solid distro, the list support is among the best I've
seen bar any mode for any software.
===
From: Jeffrey Siegal <jbs@quiotix.com>
To: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Basically, I would say that Red Hat Linux is not worth using at this
point if you're not willing to use RHN. With RHN, it is really fine,
but without, you're in store for a bunch of hair pulling, for the
reasons you mentioned and others.
I set up RHN so that it pulls through a local proxy (with a large
cache). I still have to pull rpms from Red Hat, but at least I only do
it once regardless of how many machines need the RPMs. (This is a bit
tricky. Not only must you tell it to use a proxy, but you must also
tell it not to use https for package downloads.)
===
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:37:33 -0700
From: Walter Reed <wreed@hubinternet.com>
To: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 02:20:50PM -0700, Isaiah Weiner wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:11:51PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > - rpm still doesn't have the option to auto pull dependencies in obvious
> > cases (i.e rpm -i file.rpm, where all the dependencies are in the same
> > dir)
>
> I don't see it in bugzilla. When did you file it?
Oh come now. Are you saying that RH doesn't know that rpm's failure to handle
dependencies isn't a known issue? It's one of the biggest complaints out
there!! Frankly, it almost seems that RH is holding back on this issue to push
RHN (up2date) which DOES handle dependencies. This is fine, I guess, but it
makes RH a poor choice for Linux if you don't plan on paying (or are not able
to pay) for RHN. The issue Marc points out below for non-paid subscriptions is
proof of this:
> > - up2date is a joke
> > [root@localhost RPMS]# up2date -i redhat-config-network
> > Error Message:
> > Free service limited due to high load, please try again later (server 1001059607)
> > Error Class Code: 51
>
> I can understand your frustration, but I'm not sure how it differs from
> a slashdotted website, or an FTP site with too many users, nor how it makes
> the client a "joke." Maybe some new jargon.
Can you give a list of mirrors to RHN for when this situation arises? Oh. There
are no mirrors? Hmm. This is a problem.... up2date is the only method that
handles dependancies automatically and updates the system automatically.
Debian's package management system handles complete updates and dependency
issues just fine with a local mirror or ANY mirror out there. No special
network or proprietary software needed.
Hey, I can understand RH's desire to make money. That's just fine. RHN is just
fine too for the type of customer that can afford it. Since the rpm tool has
basically taken a back seat to up2date, it pretty much makes up2date and a paid
subscription to RHN "mandatory". This significantly raises the cost of using RH
versus Debian or other linux distros.
I have been using RH for about 3 years now (purchased boxed copies), and had
been a slackware user before that (since around '95.) RH 7.3 is the last
version of RH that I will use. I have become a debian convert mainly due to the
depandency hell issues on RH, with deb replacing RH on 7 out of 8 systems so
far. The reduced bloat is another big reason...
Hey, I have nothing against RH as a company. I appreciate the many things they
have done for the community. I do believe that they have lost sight a little
with what the larger linux community needs and desires on their quest to be
profitable. That's too bad. I wish RH luck, but meanwhile I've found something
that just works better.
===
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:56:56 -0700
From: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
To: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 02:20:50PM -0700, Isaiah Weiner wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:11:51PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > - rpm still doesn't have the option to auto pull dependencies in obvious
> > cases (i.e rpm -i file.rpm, where all the dependencies are in the same
> > dir)
>
> I don't see it in bugzilla. When did you file it?
We both know that's a troll.
We also both know what'd happen if I were to open a bug on that (and mind
you, if you check marc_soft @ merlins.org in bugzilla, you'll see that I'm
not shy about reporting bugs & fixes, and bugzilla does not even list the
bugs from your two previous bug systems, going back to bugs@redhat.com for
RH 2.02 about 7 years ago or so. There is lots of packages in RH that have
code from me, and the amanda package you ship is pretty much the one I gave
you, unless it's been updated recently)
But to answer your question, I've asked RH folks I know on more than one
occasion, and they've told me that it's not the job of RPM to do that (in
all fairness, dpkg on debian doesn't do that either, but they provide
apt-get, so it doesn't matter)
> > - up2date is a joke
> > [root@localhost RPMS]# up2date -i redhat-config-network
> > Error Message:
> > Free service limited due to high load, please try again later (server 1001059607)
> > Error Class Code: 51
>
> I can understand your frustration, but I'm not sure how it differs from
> a slashdotted website, or an FTP site with too many users, nor how it makes
> the client a "joke." Maybe some new jargon.
The joke is that it needs to connect to Red Hat to do just about anything.
I am not really interested in the service RH sells and what up2date offers
on the web server and remote admin side (mind you, I'm not saying up2date is
useless, or that one would be silly to pay RH for the service, I'm saying
that I don't need it and I don't want/need to use up2date to keep my
machines in sync)
up2date will not use my local resources (well, not without some non obvious
mods and commands). I haven't spent too much time looking yet, but so far,
I haven't found documentation on how to use up2date to do the following:
- install a package and all its dependencies, using the packages that I
have on disk or a local ftp/http server
- doing something like this:
# up2date --whatprovides=libcapplet.so.0
control-center-1.4.0.1-31
_without_ connecting to Red Hat.
Mind you, I'm not set on using up2date, I'd be happy to use anything, but
none of the other tools seem to really be doing the job that well/easily
either.
Going back to "joke", sure the word was a bit harsh, but I was dead in the
water for the afternoon while setting up my first (master) server in a
company, because you happened to release a glibc package that day.
I understand about the slashdot effect, but I didn't want to be connecting
to your servers and pulling from you for what I was doing in the first
place.
> > - dependencies still suck.
> > [root@localhost RPMS]# rpm -i redhat-config-network-1.0.0-1.i386.rpm
> > gnome-core-1.4.0.4-54.i386.rpm libgnomeprint15-0.35-4.i386.rpm
> > rep-gtk-gnome-0.15-7.i386.rpm gdk-pixbuf-gnome-0.14.0-8.i386.rpm
> > rep-gtk-0.15-7.i386.rpm librep-0.15.1-3.i386.rpm
> > pygnome-libglade-1.4.2-3.i386.rpm pygtk-libglade-0.6.9-3.i386.rpm
> > libglade-0.17-5.i386.rpm sawfish-1.0.1-9.i386.rpm
I spent more than 30mn tracking the dependencies for a few packages like
this (by hand, since I couldn't use up2date)
> > How am I supposed to know that libcapplet.so.0 comes from the
> > control-center package?
>
> If you have the rpmdb-redhat package you would be able to use
> --redhatprovides option, as detailed in usage message for rpm.
I will try that, thank you.
> > My question is simple:
> > How can I install RH packages (not contrib) with the dependencies in a way
> > that actually works (and I want to be able to say where my packages are, I
> > don't want to pull them from some random place on the net)
>
> It's not complete, but try getting the latest up2date client errata nd
> using the nodownload option. It should sort out the dependencies and give
> you a list, which you can use to fund your local package installation.
> Granted, I haven't actually tried it. Please do file an RFE in bugzilla if
> you're that concerned with the feature.
I could look at it, but it looks like I'd be using a hammer on a screw.
I had resisted looking at apt-rpm so far since it's not part of "standard"
RH, and I was making an effort to use the "standard" methods, but it looks
like it's really the way to go.
===
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:10:25 -0700
From: Felipe Leme <felipeal@iname.com>
To: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
Cc: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>, svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Marc MERLIN wrote:
> But to answer your question, I've asked RH folks I know on more than one
> occasion, and they've told me that it's not the job of RPM to do that (in
> all fairness, dpkg on debian doesn't do that either, but they provide
> apt-get, so it doesn't matter)
I don't know it that would work on RH, but Mandrake has a tool called
urpmi that's similar to apt-get, which would install a package and all
of its dependencies.
===
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:26:42 -0700
From: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>
To: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
> Oh come now. Are you saying that RH doesn't know that rpm's failure to
> handle dependencies isn't a known issue? It's one of the biggest
> complaints out there!!
I'm quite simply asking him when he filed the RFE. He complained about
it, so it's worth asking.
You seem to think that it's a job rpm should handle, bundling a
packaging system together with an update service. Well, rpm-4.1 does some
of it. It's a step in the right direction, anyway, which you might know if
you're paying attention to rpm development.
Admittedly, I don't; I didn't realize it until today looking through
bugzilla for Marc's nonexistent RFE when I came across some poor soul
demanding the rpm package maintainer close his eyes to the larger picture
and focus solely on a feature which simply is not possible right now. It's
important to take the past into consideration when contemplating future
architecture changes in any software, lest you create more problems than
those you resolved.
So one time, bored out of my mind, I asked my friend and coworker on
what I should spend some excess time hacking. His endearing response is
forever burned into my brain: "Figure out what pisses you off the most and
fix it."
===
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:46:02 -0700
From: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>
To: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:56:56PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > I don't see it in bugzilla. When did you file it?
>
> We both know that's a troll.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I was being totally serious. I
considered replying off-list to more completely convey that, but decided
some of the list members might benefit from the redhatprovides option.
> But to answer your question, I've asked RH folks I know on more than
> one occasion, and they've told me that it's not the job of RPM to do
> that (in all fairness, dpkg on debian doesn't do that either, but
> they provide apt-get, so it doesn't matter)
That's consistent with what I've read.
> The joke is that it needs to connect to Red Hat to do just about
> anything. I am not really interested in the service RH sells and what
> up2date offers on the web server and remote admin side (mind you, I'm not
> saying up2date is useless, or that one would be silly to pay RH for the
> service, I'm saying that I don't need it and I don't want/need to
> use up2date to keep my machines in sync)
>
> up2date will not use my local resources (well, not without some non
> obvious mods and commands). I haven't spent too much time looking yet,
> but so far,
So it sounds like you should file a RFE against up2date, then. I'm
sure Adrian would take it seriously and has probably already thought about
implementing it.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:06:59 -0700
From: "Rafael Skodlar,,," <raffi@linwin.com>
To: Walter Reed <wreed@hubinternet.com>
Cc: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>, svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:37:33PM -0700, Walter Reed wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 02:20:50PM -0700, Isaiah Weiner wrote:
..............
>
> Can you give a list of mirrors to RHN for when this situation arises? Oh. There
> are no mirrors? Hmm. This is a problem.... up2date is the only method that
> handles dependancies automatically and updates the system automatically.
>
> Debian's package management system handles complete updates and dependency
> issues just fine with a local mirror or ANY mirror out there. No special
> network or proprietary software needed.
>
> Hey, I can understand RH's desire to make money. That's just fine. RHN is just
The trouble is that RH is NOT making money with that strategy
Symbol Last Trade Chg Jul 26
RHAT 4.71 -0.56
> fine too for the type of customer that can afford it. Since the rpm tool has
> basically taken a back seat to up2date, it pretty much makes up2date and a paid
> subscription to RHN "mandatory". This significantly raises the cost of using RH
> versus Debian or other linux distros.
The high subscription cost to RHN is a turn off for any home user as
well as small companies. This is 2002 and we no longer need to put up
with outdated software packaging and RH should understand that. They had
their time and money to fix this problem when they upgraded RPMs.
Instead they introduced problems with libraries in RH7.0 etc. which
cause huge problems to software developers for nobody's gain. If their
marketing thinks it's a good policy to sell broken distribution in order
to rake in support calls, they are mistaken.
> I have been using RH for about 3 years now (purchased boxed copies), and had
> been a slackware user before that (since around '95.) RH 7.3 is the last
> version of RH that I will use. I have become a debian convert mainly due to the
> depandency hell issues on RH, with deb replacing RH on 7 out of 8 systems so
> far. The reduced bloat is another big reason...
Experience similar to mine. In order to get RH working is either to
install everything or end up with broken system because RPMs do not
provide safe way of installing, much less upgrading many packages
without running into major dependencies issues.
>
> Hey, I have nothing against RH as a company. I appreciate the many things they
> have done for the community. I do believe that they have lost sight a little
> with what the larger linux community needs and desires on their quest to be
> profitable. That's too bad. I wish RH luck, but meanwhile I've found something
> that just works better.
Same here.
>
> - Walt
What I wanted to add in my first reply to Marc was URLs but did not
have it at hand.
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-06-17-005-26-OP-SW
I believe that Ladislav Bodnar did an excellent job in his article:
http://www.distrowatch.com/article-rpm.php
The summary:
"While the RPM Package manager is not inherently flawed, the way it has
been implemented on various RPM-based Linux distributions have created
major inconveniences for the desktop end user:
1. An RPM-based distribution is risky to upgrade. [1]
2. A more complex binary RPM package is often hard, if not impossible to install.
3. The incompatibilities between different versions of the RPM Package
Manager added another layer of complexity.
4. The developers are forced to consider differences between
distributions and create multiple binary packages. [2]
The following solutions have been suggested:
1. Learn to build your own RPMs.
2. Petition the RPM distributions to adhere to common standards.
3. Use more advanced package management tools, such as urpmi or apt-rpm.
4. Switch to Debian or Slackware.
5. Switch to a source-based Linux distributions, such as Gentoo or
Sorcerer."
[1] It actualy never worked. Remember fiasco with RPM tool not being
ugradable itself.
[2] RPMs from Mandrake don't work with RPMs from RH or vice versa in
most cases.
Simply put: RH is a growing disappointment as technology as well as
investment. Have enough of bad experience in both. The RPM deficiency
problem has been known for years, the alternative solution (APT from
Debian) also, the question is what will RH do about it?
I came to the conclusion that it's better to spend my time on learning
Debian internals (and some of it's sillyness) than waste my time chasing
down unresolvable rpm dependencies. apt-rpm or apt4rpm are not ready for
prime time yet and are not supported widely enough to be usable in
corporate environment.
I hope this does not grow beyond "friendly argument". I'm not married to
any Linux distribution or it's alternatives. OS is only a tool to bring
computers to life and run applications that solve problems or entertain
us. We are fortunate to be able to select the most suitable tools for
our needs. Efficiency and usefulness of tools changes and it's up to us
to compromise and select the best.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:32:00 -0700
From: Michael Olds <MikeOlds@pacbell.net>
To: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>, Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: RE: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Point of view: new individual RH7.3 user. I was very gratified to read
Marc's first post and even moreso the debate that followed, is following.
Switching from MS I purchased the boxed set 7.2 ($175 with discount), and
spent one month learning that my hardware wasn't going to work (It was
compatable with 7.0...the idea that a later version would not be compatible
with earlier-version hardware was baffling to me). I bought a new box
specifically for the RH distribution. Then spent the next 2 months tearing
my hair out because although the come-on on the box suggested I would get
install help, what was intended was e-mail and forum suport. That came in
the form of 24 hour delays and incorrect irrelevant and disinterested
responses that assumed I had complete familiarity with the system. My early
and continued feeling is that RH is nothing more than a Microsoft wannabe
and that lack of support was a deliberate policy to force paid support. Then
I upgraded to 7.3 and used rpm to install a few things (the new KDE, Apache,
Mozilla, and Bind) and have watched as application after application has
started to malfunction.
I'm not saying it wasnt't mostly me, but I am very glad to hear it was
likely not entirely my own fault.
I'm looking into Linux from Scratch.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:40:07 -0700
From: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
To: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>, Felipe Leme <felipeal@iname.com>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:26:42PM -0700, Isaiah Weiner wrote:
> So one time, bored out of my mind, I asked my friend and coworker on
> what I should spend some excess time hacking. His endearing response is
> forever burned into my brain: "Figure out what pisses you off the most and
> fix it."
Yep, that's what has defined open source developement in many cases.
That said, I've done this more than once, and for more than one package:
* Slackware
* RedHat Linux
* Debian Linux
* Newsgate
* Assemble Usenet Binaries (aub)
* Vim
* Midnight Commander
* Xgmod
* Gmodplay
* Procmeter
* WWWoffle
* Gallery
* watchdog
* Mirror
* Mailman
* Exim
* UW Imap
* SpamAssassin
* logcheck
* amanda
Some of my work on mailman, exim, and spamassassin (initially for
sourceforge.net) has taken me days (spread out over weeks and months of my
spare time).
There are times where I have to live with what's out there, or what I don't
see being fixed anytime soon or accepted.
But eh, I even wrote a script to help hand-upgrade my RH distro back when
the RH upgrade would bomb out in the middle and do stupid things (even then,
I never liked the fact that the RH upgrade required to take your system
down, and reboot into a half workable one (since it renamed half my modified
conffiles))
http://marc.merlins.org/linux/rhupgrade.html
(really outdated and useless today)
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:10:25PM -0700, Felipe Leme wrote:
> I don't know it that would work on RH, but Mandrake has a tool called
> urpmi that's similar to apt-get, which would install a package and all
> of its dependencies.
Yes, that tool is pretty good, and RH should have the same.
That said, without support from RH itself, it's only ever going to be second
rate.
On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:46:02PM -0700, Isaiah Weiner wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:56:56PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > I don't see it in bugzilla. When did you file it?
> >
> > We both know that's a troll.
>
> I'm sorry you feel that way. I was being totally serious.
Well, do consider that:
1) you aren't stupid, you very well know the problem exists
2) I've talked to people in charge of RPM on more than one occasion
Just a few weeks ago, I was talking to some RH folks at OLS, and chatted
with Daniel Veillard (rpmfind) about this.
But eh, there you go: bug 70001
> considered replying off-list to more completely convey that, but decided
> some of the list members might benefit from the redhatprovides option.
Yes, it's not well know, and useful, thanks.
> > up2date will not use my local resources (well, not without some non
> > obvious mods and commands). I haven't spent too much time looking yet,
> > but so far,
>
> So it sounds like you should file a RFE against up2date, then. I'm
> sure Adrian would take it seriously and has probably already thought about
> implementing it.
The bug went to jbj, don't know whether it's him or not.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:44:13 -0700
From: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>
To: Michael Olds <MikeOlds@pacbell.net>
Cc: Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>, svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:32:00AM -0700, Michael Olds wrote:
> Point of view: new individual RH7.3 user. I was very gratified to read
> Marc's first post and even moreso the debate that followed, is following.
> Switching from MS I purchased the boxed set 7.2 ($175 with discount), and
> spent one month learning that my hardware wasn't going to work (It was
> compatable with 7.0...the idea that a later version would not be compatible
> with earlier-version hardware was baffling to me). I bought a new box
In RH's defense, the situation you describe is very atypical, and overall,
they are pretty good about offering the best compatibility and testing
against a lot of hardware, but they don't have as many testing resources as
MS does.
> specifically for the RH distribution. Then spent the next 2 months tearing
> my hair out because although the come-on on the box suggested I would get
> install help, what was intended was e-mail and forum suport. That came in
Yeah. It's unfortunate, but true of just about everyone. You don't really
get phone support for that price anymore, from anyone (or just about)
> the form of 24 hour delays and incorrect irrelevant and disinterested
> responses that assumed I had complete familiarity with the system. My early
> and continued feeling is that RH is nothing more than a Microsoft wannabe
> and that lack of support was a deliberate policy to force paid support. Then
Eheh, and you're saying that microsoft doesn't do this? (not that I
completley agree with your first statement BTW)
> I upgraded to 7.3 and used rpm to install a few things (the new KDE, Apache,
> Mozilla, and Bind) and have watched as application after application has
> started to malfunction.
Hard to say, but it's obviously working for many other people.
> I'm not saying it wasnt't mostly me, but I am very glad to hear it was
> likely not entirely my own fault.
Your problem and mine really aren't related.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:54:47 -0700
From: Walter Reed <wreed@hubinternet.com>
To: Michael Olds <MikeOlds@pacbell.net>
Cc: svlug@lists.svlug.org
Subject: Re: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
On Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:32:00AM -0700, Michael Olds wrote:
<RH install problems and other issues snipped>
> I'm looking into Linux from Scratch.
If you are a Linux newbie, installing all your apps from tarballs will
probabaly end up being a very frustrating experience. Many of the packages
require a significant amount of work to customize them for a particular set of
features, libraries, etc. Solving dependency issues can be almost as difficult
as dealing with them with rpm.
Distros such as sorcerer and gentoo assume that you are a competent UNIX admin
/ programmer.
Frankly, Debian really shines here. You have dozens (hundreds?) of people
(package maintainers) handling the dependency issues / package configuration
tweaks for you. They also frequently add patches for security / stability
problems (RH does this too.) When you install Debian/Stable, you can be really
sure that it is indeed "stable". Patches are released as needed for security /
stability issues. Bug fixes are frequently backported to older releases of
software to maintain consistent behavior (you don't want functionality changed
out from under you.) Packages are NOT updated just to have the latest /
greatest code.
Many of the people on svlug are long-time UNIX guru's. There
is a reason so many of them support Debian.
===
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:23:56 -0700
From: Michael Olds <MikeOlds@pacbell.net>
To: J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu>
Cc: Marc MERLIN <marc_news@merlins.org>, Isaiah Weiner <iweiner@redhat.com>,
Subject: RE: [svlug] RH dependencies, not using up2date
Thanks JC, actually I have had a working install for a while, the problem is
it is breaking down. (The probable cause is me fiddling; and I am not
complaining, I just thought it might have been the same story as with Marc
in that the problems started with upgrading packages, but he has made it
clear that his problems and mine are in no way related.) I have plenty of
time (retired), and no pressure (this is just a hobby) so I am not
frustrated at the learning curve (and expected it, and am happy to see that
I make daily progress.)
My beef was with attitude and what I think of as deception and greed at
RedHat. There is no telling me that deception wasn't the idea when
"installation support" is front and center on the website and elsewhere (and
I do not think the website, or the retail packages available at Fry's are
aimed at the corporate user, so I think the idea (at least one idea) was
designed to make money off single-user frustration). And I was being
generous describing the e-mail support where the facts were that neither of
the two techs I had spoke coherent English or related to my situation even
slightly, and the average response time was three days. And on top of that
the only response I got to taking issue with the quality of service was
"Sign up for paid support."
I just chimed in because it was a little gratifying (it eliminated a little
self-doubt) to see that I was not the only one who seemed to see problems at
RedHat.
===